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Topic: Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case?

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    Default Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case?

    Basically for a film school assignment, a short film I made, the professor wasn't able to make sense of the plot after he saw it. He pointed out plot holes, and asked what's going on or why they were in there.

    I told him that one of the actors didn't show up on a shoot day, and I didn't want to loose the time we had to shoot, so I rewrote the script on the fly for the remaining actors, but as a result the story doesn't hold together as well as did originally.

    He said that he is going to show the short film to connections on the business, and get the word out, along with the short films all the other students made. He said when those people call me or email me to talk about my work, they are not going to want to here that I have plot holes in my film as a result of an actor not showing up.

    And that before he shows the film (which is only a few days away), I have to fix the plot holes in the editing for them and somehow make the movie made sense for them, cause in the professional world, I just can't say I have plot holes, cause an actor cancelled.

    However, I feel that maybe if my movie makes no sense, like he says, that maybe he shouldn't be showing it connections in the business, cause it could very well make a bad impression if the movie turned out poorly. I feel like maybe I should ask him not to show it, if I am getting to be getting emails from people, saying they didn't understand, and I am not allowed to explain why the plot holes occurred.

    What do you think? Should I ask him not to show it if that's the case, or what?

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  2. #2
    Super Moderator   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? mara's Avatar
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    Do your best in the few days that you have and DO NOT spend your time stressing over it. You may never again have a chance to have your work shown to someone's industry contacts, and they may see something that they like, so don't pass on that opportunity.

    Check out my blog on my experiences as an indie screenwriter and producier:
    http://moreorlessonmovies.blogspot.com/

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    Well true, but the professor said it makes no sense, so that's a bad sign and the people will likely get a bad impression therefore, and it's not worth the risk, if the risk is high, right?

    And he says that don't tell them that I had to create a plot hole cause an actor didn't show up. So if we did show it to them and they ask me "I don't understand why this character did this, when they would normally do this, etc", should I just say "That is for you, the audience to figure out (wink)"?

    Or how should I respond?

    Last edited by ironpony; 08-05-2017 at 11:45 AM.

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    Senior Member   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Walter B's Avatar
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    "This is the second short I made. Some unexpected events forced to improvise on the spot. It didn't turn out as perfectly as planned."

    First sentence should be enough :p
    If they think it is bad they will not call you.
    If they call you they must have liked something.

    Never underestimate the opportunity to actually have someone look at your work.

    Anyway: life is to short to have some messageboard on internet script your phonecalls :-p


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    Senior Member   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Steve Olander's Avatar
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    You were given this assignment as if you had been hired to make something for someone's film.

    If you show them something that's not perfect, that can be chalked up to inexperience. This is why you are at the school.

    If you show them nothing you demonstrate you are incapable and will never get business again.


    Those are the 2 ways you will be perceived.

    In the film I am shooting the last shots for next Saturday, the film originally was being shot in 2013 but it was sabotaged by a Director and an Actor. Four years later is it rewritten, a lot of original footage saved, though in SD and not HD, and new actors cast to play new parts and previously cast parts. While shooting this year some locations that were locked in were pulled by the property owners. Sometimes a new location was obtained, sometimes the scene was cut, and the script modified. The SD footage was re-rendered in HD. It looks funny. To cover this we are editing the film with a Grindhouse look where it has scratches, splices, and looks like it has been shown at a drive-in a couple hundred times. This means all the new HD footage has to have this done too.

    We shot a scene and then the actor quit. We recast and I am reshooting that next Saturday.

    A number of scenes that were in the rewrite fell through. Some changes in editing cover some of it, a couple new scenes were put in to bridge things.

    My point is, this is how it goes all the time. You said before with good planning none of this stuff will happen. I told you then, there was no such thing. Humans are involved and that means the variables are infinite. A filmmaker has to know how to plug the holes, either missing scenes, footage that did not come out well, actors quit, sound is no good, weather inconsistencies, and everything else. The thing is......you MAKE it happen. One way or another, you make it work. THAT'S what being a filmmaker is. They all do it. Now it is your turn.


    Steve


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    I think I may have found a way to fill the plot holes to a certain degree. There is a character who was in a previous scene, who explain some things to tie things together. If I can move this character into another scene, make the audience believe that he is there in this scene, that can help.

    However, I will have to zoom in close enough so the audience does not see that there is a completely different background behind him, which will cause pixelation downgrading. Or I can just put his voice in this scene, and make the audience believe he is there, even though they don't really see him, which will be very weird. What do you think?

    The movie is also going to be three minutes longer than the teacher wanted it to be since I am suppose to keep it at 8 minutes or under, and I will be looking at at least 11 now, but maybe breaking the time length is more important, if it means the plot is going to make sense more?

    Well one of the plot holes is this. Basically a time machine is buried, and then sent back in time to the past but no one knows it was sent back in time, cause it's underground.

    However, later on the in story, when it's dug up, the protagonist sends it back when it's not buried and it's discovered, since it was above ground, and thus changing the past. However, how do I get the audience to understand the concept that the reason why the time machine was discovered this time, and not before, was that it was not buried when it was sent back compared to before?

    I can move the actor into this scene to explain to the others, to help the audience understand. However, that character being there to explain it is a bit flimsy, if I move him there, and you just hear him talk and don't see him. But if doing so is necessary to help the audience understand the concept of why it was discovered since it was above ground as oppose to not, then is moving the character there to explain it, necessary?

    Another thing is, is that I am told my I skip ahead to much in the editing, and that a character is at this location, and then all of a sudden, he is at that location, etc... But why is that so hard to follow? In movies, you see a character in one location, then they leave, and it cuts to the next location, and they have arrived there.

    Why do I have to show them actually travel from one to the other. I could but it's going to take more screen time, but is that necessary? Here is what I mean more so. Here is the cut that is too jarring from one location, to the next:



    And here is another cut, where you actually more of the travel, and the characters arriving, but is that necessary for the audience to understand?



    Last edited by ironpony; 08-06-2017 at 03:36 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Walter B's Avatar
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    I second what Steven says.
    The 48 Hour short I directed last year has a few slightly out of focus shots. And some other flaws.
    We put it out there anyway. I went to London to watch it on screen there and we reached far more viewers online than the winner and the other 38 shorts (There were 40 shorts in this 48 Hour competition) combined. Fear will only hold you back.

    As for your 2 edits:
    The first one is not 'jarring', it is just rubbish. It probably makes sense to you, but the pacing is weird (a few 1 second shots does not make it 'Snatch' or 'Hot Fuzz').
    The second edit has the same rubbish parts in it plus way too long shots and unneeded shots.
    I feel tempted to cut it, but I guess that could be cheating your homework.

    Because I can't resist commenting on edit 2:

    After shot 1 (man walks away), you can cut to woman standing and looking back. (the walking at the start can be cut)
    Cut to empty street and red car driving. (make it last longer: have you become so used to your 3 second test shots that you don't see how short those shots are? Make the empty street part long enough to make it a 'waiting shot', indicating she is waiting in the car, eventhough you will only know after this shot.)
    She starts her car. (her starting the car before seeing the red car is also silly. Let see the car first and then start: this way it is obvious she waited for that car. No need to show her driving away anymore. )
    The shot with the 2 cars. Cut when red car stops. (all the parking stuff is silly)
    She takes the gun. Cut (no need to open the door)

    She walks on the street.
    She looks true the trees.
    Old man meets other man. (not the other ways around: your edits shows what she will see before she sees it: that is dull. You show her peeping first, make us wonder what she sees and than shows what she sees. Not the other ways around.)

    Cut the rest.
    Now I expect to be in the credits :p

    Last edited by Walter B; 08-06-2017 at 06:10 AM.

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    Okay thanks, I can do that. However, there are lots of movies where a cut will start out where you see what the person is looking at before seeing the person. What did I do differently that makes it dull since other movies have done that? For example, I recall a movie where someone is looking through binoculars at someone and we see the binocular POV shot, before we see who is looking.

    So what did I do differently that makes it dull when other movies have done it. Also, what is it that makes it rubbish exactly, or what can I do to change it? What did I do to attempt to make it Snatch or Hot Fuzz, since that is not what I was going for?

    And yes I see how short some of the shots are, I was just told I need to keep the movie short and cut down on the shots, so I did it, but yes I do see it, I am just doing it that way, since I was told to cut the shots shorter.

    I originally cut it so that she is waiting for the car to come out of the gate, and she is just waiting there, but I was told by classmates, that the waiting shot is just 'dead space', and I need to move on and have her already following the car.

    But if I should cut it so she is waiting instead, I could go back and just do it that way, if that's better.

    Also, you said her starting her car before she sees the red car is silly, but she does see the red car. It's in the shot, as he is waiting for the gate to open. But if I did not make it clear that the red car is there, I can extend the shot longer.


    The thing that concerns me about cutting it so that she takes the gun but we don't see her getting out of the car. The class was unable to figure out how she got from her to there, when I skip ahead. It was too jarring to them. So if I skip her getting out of the car, will people be able to figure out that she got out of the car, after getting the gun? Or will they find it too confusing, and actually need to see her get out of the car?

    Also you say to cut when the red car stops but if I cut to her already being parked and taking the gun, wouldn't they find that confusing? It's like she is following him, and then all of a sudden she is parked, and it's a huge continuity jump. Would people find that confusing or jarring at all?

    But how's this?



    Last edited by ironpony; 08-06-2017 at 12:13 PM.

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    Senior Member   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Walter B's Avatar
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    You are confused. And you need to learn the art of editing, which is more than cutting and pasting: it's about creating meaning by combining shots.
    And you need to learn decoupage. Movies are full of things not shown that are not relevant.
    You also need to learn your brain and eyes: making shots short does not mean you have to cripple shots too short.
    And you made some shots too long.
    How well can you dance?

    Snatch and Hott Fuzz was irony, as they use very short fast paced montages to either introduce someone or show time and distance travelled, or just to show a cool pastiche on such edits.
    You did not try it, but you have some very short shots that mean nothing.

    I now see why you have those 2 too short shots of the road with and without the red car: you didn't shoot it fluently.
    Her in the car with camera moving toward the front is a useless movement, because in the next shot you are back behind her.
    You moved but didn't expose much and then you went back. That doesnt make it flow in a visual way. (But let's forget that for now: you need to learn timing.)

    You say that in some movies they did what you do.
    If you would master semiotic analyses you could analyse both situations ;)
    Now you need to analyse: what is the purpose and why does someone first show a POV or first the one who is looking?

    Showing POV is what a great Dutch editor call 'Red Riding Hood perspective': the viewer knows someone is watching, but the one watched doesn't know it. It's also what Spielberg does in Jaws to create tension: the prey is unaware.
    In your situation she is following someone somewhere: then it makes more sense to show her peeping to establish the location and to make the viewer wonder... blabla I repeat myself.
    You need to find out yourself: nobody can show it, if you don't see it.


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    Senior Member   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Walter B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    .................Also, what is it that makes it rubbish exactly, or what can I do to change it? ....................
    The second parts was answered, but the first part:
    ask a stranger to analyse that scene: what happens?
    You call it jarring, I call it rubbish, because it is bad editing with random shots.


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    I now see why you have those 2 too short shots of the road with and without the red car: you didn't shoot it fluently.
    Her in the car with camera moving toward the front is a useless movement, because in the next shot you are back behind her.
    You moved but didn't expose much and then you went back. That doesnt make it flow in a visual way. (But let's forget that for now: you need to learn timing.)
    Okay thanks. What I could do is is have a shot of her starting the car from the same angle instead of moving back. But you see in movies, camera angles switching all the time. First the angle is more on the front of an actor, and then it cuts to a side shot. It's good to learn these things, cause I didn't learn the rules on this. When it comes to moving the camera to the front of an actor, is it then not okay, to cut back to the side a couple of seconds later? Is there rules on angles switching like that?

    Also what do you mean I didn't shoot it fluently? Are you saying that the gate takes too long to open before the car drives out?

    What about after the red car leaves the gate and arrives at the second destination? Is that better part better shown now?

    When you say that I do not hold the shot long enough before cutting back to her starting the car, are we talking about the first cut or the latest cut I just sent?

    Last edited by ironpony; 08-06-2017 at 02:12 PM.

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    Senior Member   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Walter B's Avatar
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    lol, you edited your reply already.
    There are no hard rules for that.
    But look:


    Why did you move it in the first place?


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    I moved it cause I thought the movement would create a certain emotional feeling I wanted. I can't quite explain what, my instincts told me to move it that way in the storyboards to get a certain feeling. Then later in the editing, I felt that the shot of her starting the car, with the camera more on her side was better, so I decided to cut them together.

    However, when you uploaded it just now, you cut out the shot in between of the gate opening. Do I not hold that shot long enough in the second edit? How long do I have to hold the shot before, before cutting back to a side shot of her, if that's the case?

    I find it hard to see your example of no rhythm when you cut out the in between shot. How long should I hold the inbetween shot for?

    What if I used one of the takes where she starts the car from the front more, would that be better?

    So basically a good rule of thumb maybe is, is that if I move the camera on a shot, but then cut back, I should show the camera stop, instead of having the camera move in one, and then cutting back, and then all of a sudden it's stopped right? Should I show the movement stop then, in most circumstances?

    Last edited by ironpony; 08-06-2017 at 02:49 PM.

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    Senior Member   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Walter B's Avatar
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    rhym <> rhtythm
    They are not the same thing.
    I cut the other shot out, not because it has to be cut out, but to show the visual connection between the shots where either of the shots feels unmotivated.
    If the moving shot had shown more emotion or reaction: like drumming with the fingers on the steering wheel to show some kind of impatience and then a 'surprise/alert' face and her starting the car in the same shot or after the cut with the edit shot, it would have been a fluid edit.
    If you have that shot of her starting the car shown more from the front it could be a better choice, because you're not jumping back and forth randomly then. Try it!

    I don't know what else you've got, but a quick cut using your long versions resulted in a 40 second and a 36 second edit of the travel scene:

    Not perfect.
    Try to put in the moving shot (followeed by the red car leaving) and then the different starting shot.
    Plus 1 shot of the red car driving away.

    The parking of the white car is a mess.
    It should have been parked in one move. Or parked the wrong way. Now you haver this magical turning of the car or a shot that is boring as hell, unless you add some Benny Hill music ;)


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    Okay thanks. Because of all the parked cars, we tried to park the car in one move but just couldn't nail it on any of the takes. Is there anything else I can do to fix that? It just seems like a huge continuity jump. And thanks for all the advice. It's very helpful.

    How is these two edits, is one better than the other?





    Last edited by ironpony; 08-06-2017 at 03:44 PM.

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    lol, instead of 1 shot with the red car driving away you now have 4 of them?
    Why?

    You edit it like a stare down in a western, but the red car is unaware of her.
    The empty shot adds nothing.
    The car driving and then halting adds nothing, but 'why?'.
    (You'll say because of the fence, but the fence doesn't attract any attention.)
    You are just cutting for the sake of cutting and as a result you have 7 shots instead of 3.
    It doesnot add tension, it does not add information, it does not add emotion: it can be cut without being missed.

    You ONLY need the first shot of her, then ONLY the LAST shot of the red car*, but with the part that the car drives through the gate: don't show it starting from full stop and then the LASt shot of her starting the car.

    *Did you see 'use the missing part' in my version?
    That was not a suggestion to add 4 shots, but to make one shot out of the 2 bits I had to work with.


    Claiming parking space is planning to occupy it.
    Improvicing is just put the car there the way it fits for the shot and park it properly later.
    Now she looks like a OCDer who needs to park the car properly in the middle of a chase. Or the way I cut it: hoping people don't pay attention to the position of the car, but there is no continuity. Either way is wrong, but I'd go with the latter version that cuts the crap instead of a version that cripples the pace.


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    The reason why I added an extra shot, is to cut ahead, and skip how the gate takes a long time open. So I inserted another shot of her, to cut down on how long it takes for the gate to open. Or should I let the gate open and hold on the shot and just wait for it?

    Also you say I only need the first shot of her. Should I not show her drive away then and just shot the red car drive off, and then cut ahead to the next location then?

    I could do it in three shots, but what should the three shots be exactly?

    1. Shot of what she is looking at, waiting for the car to arrive.

    2. Shot of her looking and waiting for the car.

    3. Car coming out and then driving away.


    And then the fourth shot is just cutting right to the next location is that right?

    When you say 'use the missing part', which part is that?

    And here is the problem I am having. You say to have a shot of her waiting for the car arrive, and to have the first shot be the empty street, like you said originally, right?

    But then when the car comes, it still has to get past the fence. Should I cut ahead and the fence has already opened, but the audience doesn't see that? If so, will the audience be able to process in their minds that the fence has opened for him, but we didn't see it? Or will the audience process it as a continuity flaw? First shot gate is closed, then cuts to her, then all of a sudden gate is all the way open. I am trying to reduce continuity problems, so wouldn't editing it that way increase it? Or are you suggesting I do something else?

    How is this for a new cut of the car parking, is it better at all?



    Last edited by ironpony; 08-06-2017 at 04:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    The reason why I added an extra shot, is to cut ahead, and skip how the gate takes a long time open. So I inserted another shot of her, to cut down on how long it takes for the gate to open. Or should I let the gate open and hold on the shot and just wait for it?

    Also you say I only need the first shot of her. Should I not show her drive away then and just shot the red car drive off, and then cut ahead to the next location then?

    I could do it in three shots, but what should the three shots be exactly?

    1. Shot of what she is looking at, waiting for the car to arrive.

    2. Shot of her looking and waiting for the car.

    3. Car coming out and then driving away.
    I'll repeat it. Please read it:
    You ONLY need the first shot of her, then ONLY the LAST shot of the red car*, but with the part that the car drives through the gate: don't show it starting from full stop and then the LASt shot of her starting the car.

    The last shot of the car is now too short: the car is in the middle of the street. So it needs to be extended at the start of the clip, so it drives through the fence onto the street. 1 bloody shot. How hard is this?
    Leave the fence open. Nobody cares about the fence.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    And then the fourth shot is just cutting right to the next location is that right?
    Look at how I cut it.
    What comes next?
    And it is your project.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    When you say 'use the missing part', which part is that?
    Sometimes I wonder whether you are blind and illiterate.
    At 0:07:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=4ZQHBtSgkhA

    What do you see?

    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    And here is the problem I am having. You say to have a shot of her waiting for the car arrive, and to have the first shot be the empty street, like you said originally, right?

    But then when the car comes, it still has to get past the fence. Should I cut ahead and the fence has already opened, but the audience doesn't see that? If so, will the audience be able to process in their minds that the fence has opened for him, but we didn't see it? Or will the audience process it as a continuity flaw? First shot gate is closed, then cuts to her, then all of a sudden gate is all the way open. I am trying to reduce continuity problems, so wouldn't editing it that way increase it? Or are you suggesting I do something else?
    I'll repeat. Please read:
    You ONLY need the first shot of her, then ONLY the LAST shot of the red car*, but with the part that the car drives through the gate: don't show it starting from full stop and then the LASt shot of her starting the car.

    About the empty street: I meant it to be in 1 shot: the street is empty, the car drivers through the fence onto the street.
    So in short:
    1 her looking
    2 red car
    3 she starts car.

    And the beauty of this is that it fixes your slow gate problem in such a way it never existed for the viewer :p

    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    How is this for a new cut of the car parking, is it better at all?

    What do you think?
    Does it add anything to the story to see the POV of turning the car at a random house?
    The first POV shows she is tailing the red car. That means something.
    Now you are trying to fix something that was nothing more but a beginners mistake with something that attracts extra attention to it.
    POV is only interesting if there is something important to see: like a car that is being followed, or a tree the car almost hit, whatever.


    All your years of asking questions haven't prepared you for this. Because this is the reality of filmmaking. And the reality is that everything depends on everything.
    This is why many of us tried to tell you to make short simple things, so you'd be making much better calls on set and in your edits by now.


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    Okay thanks. You said before that she should park the car in one move. But editing to the POV shot of her swinging the car around, it is one move park then, so doesn't that improve it then at all? Doesn't that help fix how it was not parked in move, but cutting to the POV shot of the turn around?

    Also if I show the actor come out of the gate in a longer shot it doesn't look as good, because the actor is looking around for traffic as he comes out and it looks like he is looking in her direction, and it looks like he sees her which he is not suppose to, and it doesn't look right. I didn't notice it while shooting on the small video screen but noticed it later on the big screen. So that is why I put a shot of her in between to cover up him looking in her direction as he is looking for traffic.

    And you say to do simpler project, but this scene wasn't even in the original script, but had to write this driving scene in there, after an actor dropped out, in order to accommodate for story changes. I keep having trouble cause it starts out simpler, but then something more complicated has to happen later, when changes are forced to be made.

    Even in the editing I feel like every attempt to make to solve a problem causes another problem. Like the POV shot of the house while turning for example. I tried to cover up the problem of her not being able to park in one move, and now have caused another problem in doing so.

    What I am doing wrong, that I accidentally cause problems when trying to solve previous problems?

    But you say before that it's better to have a continuity flaw then to kill the pacing. So is it the same thing here, and that I should just leave in the continuity flaw of the car parking, rather than kill the pacing with a pov shot, of the car turing around?

    Last edited by ironpony; 08-06-2017 at 05:10 PM.

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    Try both versions of the parking.
    I see you thought about it as making it one move.
    And in that aspect you are right, but every shot should also have meaning. And I wondered: why is that POV so important?

    I would suggest to show both versions to your teacher. (And not just 10 seconds, but at least 1,5 minutes of your film.)
    Don't explain anything before showing it: let him react first to see whether he notices the POV-turn.

    Let him look at traffic. So be it. It's the better choice IMO.
    It might ambiguety (how do you spell this?) for some viewers: does he know she is following him or not? :p
    Other will just see a carefull driver.

    You know what I mean by simpler: 2 characters 2 minutes 1 day of shooting. That kind of simple would have given you more experience for the situations you run in to now.
    You are not the only one who has to improvise on set.
    We all do, almost all the time.
    I can not recall a short film I worked on where we did not have to skip shots, fix problems or change ideas on the fly.
    (Most extreme was the time when we arrived at the location and the location was literally gone: a forest at the borden was completely gone.)


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    Okay thanks. One thing I noticed is that when I make a video of the edit, the video plays faster than Premiere Pro plays it. Looking at the videos on youtube now, they play a little faster than on premiere pro, which is why I think the shots are longer than they are. Unfortunately the professor doesn't really look at the edits. We are allowed to show one rough cut, which I did and was told it did not make sense, and it skipped ahead too much, but was not told many specifics of how...

    And now I have to hand in a final, with no more advice on how to cut it down better. So I feel like we could use more edits to go through in post, rather than just two. But I will cut it the best way to your advice.

    Looking at both cuts one with the car POV, the other not, I see how the shot does solve the continuity problem right?

    What is more important do you think, meaning or continuity? You say every shot has to have meaning, but can a shot just used as a simple continuity bridge, and that is the shots only purpose, and just leave it at that? Or will the audience not leave it at that, and would rather having meaning over continuity?

    How is this edit? I used your advice on a lot of the shots, but also kept some of my own trimmings, just to make it mine, and not want to do everything you did exactly of course. Is this better?



    I was wondering though, having doing it similar to yours, the woman grabs the gun, and then all of a sudden it cuts to her slamming the car door shut. Will the audience be under the impression that she is holding the gun in her hand while walking down a street, compared to putting it in her belt, and tucking it under her shirt so the general public wouldn't see?

    Another thing when it comes to shots is that earlier in the edit, I cut a shot of the building, that the story takes place in in order to cut around a jump cut. But the shot of the building probably has no meaning, I am just doing it avoid a jump cut. I was told it was a good technique by another editor to avoid things like that, but is it, if the shot may not have meaning and it's just a shot of the location?

    Last edited by ironpony; 08-06-2017 at 08:26 PM.

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    I recommend using DaVinci Resolve 12.5! it has a youtube upload button and it syncs your speeds to wht is on the editing device to youtube. Let me know what you think :))


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    Okay thanks. However, I am editing for the school and not for youtube though, so not sure if that device would be accurate to what I am editing for at the moment.

    I went through the movie and started making all the short shots longer, cause yes I felt they were too short. But now the movie is over the 8 minute time length. The reason why I was cutting so quick, is cause I was told it was too long and I should keep it at 8 minutes or under like the assignment says to. However, I am now 3 minutes over. Perhaps I should turn it in 3 minutes over, because that is probably better than it being so quick cut that it doesn't make sense, right?

    Last edited by ironpony; 08-07-2017 at 01:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    .............

    How is this edit? I used your advice on a lot of the shots, but also kept some of my own trimmings, just to make it mine, and not want to do everything you did exactly of course. Is this better?



    ..................
    blabla
    You left the beginning of the scene away, so it is hard to tell what you did.
    I would not be surprised if you put 8 shots of going back and forth between her and the red car in front of it :p
    Seriously, discussing an edit doesn't work if you show smaller bits, because every cut has the context of the whole scene.

    But seriously, it is your project and you just did the exact opposite of what I wrote several times.
    I say:
    1) her looking
    2) red car drives through the gate onto the road
    3) she starts the car
    This conveys that she is waiting untill the red car leaves and then she starts the car to follow it.
    The viewer sees her looking at something. (What is she looking at?)
    The red car hits the road. (Ahh, she was looking at the gate...)
    She starts the car. (She reacts to what she saw: you go girl!)
    POV shot shows her tailing the car.

    You do:
    1) red car is driving to the gate (hey, a red car!)
    2) she starts the car (Where is she going?)
    3) red car hits the road. (hey, the red car again!)
    This conveys both characters could be coincidently be leaving at the same time or that she needs to hurry to chase the red car.
    It does not raise the same questions and anticipation as the other order. Because you don't see her wait, the audience doesn't have to wonder what she is looking at and the audience does not get the pay-off of thinking 'so she was waiting to follow him'.
    All this is lost in your version: the mini drama of 4 shots (her, the car, her , POV) can have a stronger arc for the viewer if you chose wisely.

    But it is your project.
    If you don't see the difference, go ahead.
    If you feel like you need to do this your own way, even if it is the lesser option: that is silly.
    If you feel your cut is better: use your cut.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    ........
    Another thing when it comes to shots is that earlier in the edit, I cut a shot of the building, that the story takes place in in order to cut around a jump cut. But the shot of the building probably has no meaning, I am just doing it avoid a jump cut. I was told it was a good technique by another editor to avoid things like that, but is it, if the shot may not have meaning and it's just a shot of the location?
    .............
    In a perfect edit every shot adds meaning, information and/or emotion and/or builds the suspence, tension, whatever.
    That is the aim.
    Most projects are not shot perfectly, so you need to solve issues like jumpcuts, weird parking and such.
    It is okay to fix the jumpcut with the building, because not doing it would be worse.
    This is the constant dilemma of editing:
    1) Does this add to the story?
    Yes -> Use it.
    No -> Don't use it
    2) Does the edit still make sense if I cut it?
    Yes -> Cut the shot
    No -> Leave it there
    3) Does cutting the shot hurt the edit in some (technical/continuity) way?
    Yes -> Leave it there
    No -> Cut it.
    4) Is this order of the shots the best order?
    -> You might never know until you try. (This requires the ability to analyse what an edit says.)

    I also have to fix imperfect shooting in the edit. Most have to. C'est la vie.
    Just make sure you learn from it.


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    Okay thanks. Sorry I misunderstood what you said before about the red car. I thought you were saying to have her start the car in the middle shot. I see now. But it still takes a while for the red car to come out though, and I thought you said before, to show a shot of the empty street you said.

    If I do that, then the car will take a while to come out since the gate takes a while to open.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter B View Post
    I second what Steven says.
    The 48 Hour short I directed last year has a few slightly out of focus shots. And some other flaws.
    We put it out there anyway. I went to London to watch it on screen there and we reached far more viewers online than the winner and the other 38 shorts (There were 40 shorts in this 48 Hour competition) combined. Fear will only hold you back.

    As for your 2 edits:
    The first one is not 'jarring', it is just rubbish. It probably makes sense to you, but the pacing is weird (a few 1 second shots does not make it 'Snatch' or 'Hot Fuzz').
    The second edit has the same rubbish parts in it plus way too long shots and unneeded shots.
    I feel tempted to cut it, but I guess that could be cheating your homework.

    Because I can't resist commenting on edit 2:

    After shot 1 (man walks away), you can cut to woman standing and looking back. (the walking at the start can be cut)
    Cut to empty street and red car driving. (make it last longer: have you become so used to your 3 second test shots that you don't see how short those shots are? Make the empty street part long enough to make it a 'waiting shot', indicating she is waiting in the car, eventhough you will only know after this shot.)
    She starts her car. (her starting the car before seeing the red car is also silly. Let see the car first and then start: this way it is obvious she waited for that car. No need to show her driving away anymore. )
    The shot with the 2 cars. Cut when red car stops. (all the parking stuff is silly)
    She takes the gun. Cut (no need to open the door)

    She walks on the street.
    She looks true the trees.
    Old man meets other man. (not the other ways around: your edits shows what she will see before she sees it: that is dull. You show her peeping first, make us wonder what she sees and than shows what she sees. Not the other ways around.)

    Cut the rest.
    Now I expect to be in the credits :p
    Like you said here to show the empty street first, before the car comes out, is that right? If I do that the red car takes a much longer time to come out since it has to wait for the gate to open. Or should I not show the empty road now? Cause now you are saying to show her first, so I confused. Do I show her waiting first, or do I show the empty street, and the red car come out first, like you said before?

    You are saying to do this now:


    [QUOTE]1) her looking
    2) red car drives through the gate onto the road
    3) she starts the car
    This conveys that she is waiting untill the red car leaves and then she starts the car to follow it.
    The viewer sees her looking at something. (What is she looking at?)
    The red car hits the road. (Ahh, she was looking at the gate...)
    She starts the car. (She reacts to what she saw: you go girl!)
    POV shot shows her tailing the car.[QUOTE]

    Number 2 is the problem. If I show the car drive through onto the road in one shot, it just feels slow cause the car slows down stops, looks for traffic and then moves on. It feels like it should be cut faster, which is why I put a shot of her in between, but I could keep it where he slows down and stops on the street, and then goes again, if that's better.

    Also, for me at least, her starting her car at the end looks weird, cause she waits till he is already driving away before she starts it. This indicates that she is starting her car late, and is off to late start on following him, and you wonder why she took so long to start the car to follow. That is what I gather from it at least.

    Here is a cut I made where I start out with the empty road, like you said to originally, but then I end with her starting the car. Doesn't it look like she starts the car too late?

    Last edited by ironpony; 08-07-2017 at 08:37 AM.

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    then start when the gate is already open and the car already moves.
    (Said that before as well.)


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    But you said before also to make it look like she has been waiting there. If I start with the car on the move already, will the audience know that she was there waiting for a while?


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    Well you have no real proper coverage for that.
    I was talking about what you could have done with those shots to make it look like she is waiting for a long time.
    Now you just have to show she was waiting for something. How long: we can't tell.
    So, the driving car is what she looks at.

    I don't know how to explain it: I call it liquid thinking where everything can change quickly when you discard an option.
    Change one shot and everything changes :p
    Constant iterations on what happens on the timeline.
    You tried the waiting for a long time and is was a terrible edit of 7 shots with 4 too many and 1 trimmed too short.

    I was already past 'waiting for a long time'.

    The audience does not have to know how long she was waiting.
    They will see her first looking at something, and then you reveal she is looking at the car. That is what matters now. She was deliberately waiting for the car, so she can follow it. You didn't shoot for the passage of time. And the whole thing with the slow fence is annoying.
    Trying to make it look like a long time will only drag your edit down.


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    Okay thanks. I cut it down to the three shots like you suggested. You originally suggested to show the empty street as the first shot. I can still do that as a first shot if that's better though.

    Last edited by ironpony; 08-07-2017 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
    Okay thanks. I cut it down to the three shots like you suggested. You originally suggested to show the empty street as the first shot. I can still do that as a first shot if that's better though.
    No.
    I suggested to show the empty street AND the red car driving: in other words: the car would drive out of the gate and hit the street in one shot.
    BUT!
    But: that was not the best idea. It was based on the fact the 2 shots of her were not a nice visual match, so the unmotivated camera move was cut in that suggestion and the sequence was cut down to 2 shots only: car hits the empty street plus she starts the car. Now the 2 shots of her do match, it should start with her to build a better arc with 3 shots.

    This is how I make decisions: always looking for the best option available. You revealed new footage: the possibilities changed and opened the door to a better cut. This means that original suggestions can become obsolete when better alternatives pop up in your mind or in the footage.
    You need to be firm, but not rigid when you edit.
    Firm in understanding why you make certain choices, but 'not rigid' so you are willing to try to think of better ways.

    I observe in the thread that while for years you have been worrying what 'the audience might think', those worries were always just superficial on the level of looks. During the edit you must also learn to think about the viewers mind: anticipation & reveal, tension & release.
    For example:
    POV first like in Jaws or with a binocular: 'what is going to happen to the people we see?'
    The gaze first: 'what is he/she seeing?'
    Showing what the hero can not see (like a bad guy waiting around the corner with a gun): 'oh no! Don't go there!'

    Even if you show the same actions on a screen, the order can heavily change the experience for the viewer. It is one of the things that makes the difference between boring and engaging.


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    Okay thanks. One decision I find myself making a lot when it comes to shots having meaning, is having to choose between shot vs. performance.

    For example, there is one scene in my short film where the actor gives the best performance during the mastershot. But the viewer might be asking why am I not using much close ups, so I am wondering if viewers will find the choice of shot distracting, if I am choosing for performance.


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    Super Moderator   Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? Should I ask that my film not be shown in this case? mara's Avatar
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    1. Everything is a compromise.
    2. Pick what you like best as it's your movie.
    3. Worry less about what other people think - you'll never please everyone.

    Check out my blog on my experiences as an indie screenwriter and producier:
    http://moreorlessonmovies.blogspot.com/

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    Yeah that's true. I recut it so that a lot of the clips were longer, but now I am told it's too long and need to be trimmed here and there. I keep being told this over and over again that I should cater to the MTV generation and cut my stuff a lot faster by other filmmakers.


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    Can you dance?


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    No.


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    Okay, dancing has nothing to do with editing.
    But I noticed you have a hard time to time your cuts.
    When you are told the edit is too long, you just cut everything short beyond 'jarring'. When you are told you cut it too short, you make it so long it becomes boring.
    This is a skill you need to develop, because there is no rule for it.


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    Okay thanks. I recut a lot of it and make the short shots longer. The movie is now 3 minutes over the desired time for the assignment, but I was told it flows more coherently now, and I am assuming that coherence is more important than length of the movie.

    But we have very limited time to edit it, and that is primarily why I am having trouble. My other shorts prior to this I feel were a lot better edited in comparison cause of having more time.


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